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Endo tips    Better Endo    Endo abstracts    Endo discussions

Extract tooth #18, probable endo tooth #19 - Courtesy ROOTS

The opinions and photographs within this web page are not ours. Authors have been
credited for the individual posts where they are - www.rxroots.com
From: Terry Pannkuk
To: ROOTS
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 1:13 AM
Subject: RE: [roots] Consult Puzzle.

I just treated #20 and had all the temps off.  #18 looks very questionable 
and probably not restorable by the dentist who sent her (no supragingival 
coronal tooth structure except a mm high thin wall at the distal). #19 was 
much deeper than expected, probably needs endo just for retention. 
 #21 looks like it won't need endo. New plan:  extract #18, probable endo #19, 
 monitor and probably leave #21 alone.

It's starting to become clearer.  I fixed all the potholes that were leaking 
in the temps.   The occlusion had some  contacts on the molars, no contacts 
on #20 and a small contact in the mesial pit of #21.  Heavy contacts
on #22.   The bicuspids were splinted separately and the molars were 
splinted separately.  When #18 is extracted, #19 will then have an ill-fitting 
single crown temp, hopefully it will be remade.  If not, I'll probably make
it myself when she comes back for the probable endo.

We know how this case is going,  how should it have gone?  From my perspective 
it should have probably gone as follows (any alternate ideas?)......

1. The dentist discovers 4 heavily restored teeth in need of  crowns.  
Impressions study models and a comprehensive plan is developed, analyzing the 
occlusion, and full mouth for all areas to make sure this quadrant is a 
reasonable place to start after sequencing priorities, right?

it could work well going this way

2......maybe the dentist decides to take #18's restorations apart, finds it's 
not restorable and sends the patient to the oral surgeon for extraction

3.......the dentist removes the restorations on the two bicuspids, leaving the 
posterior support on the first molar. #20 acts up due to a pulpitis/exposure.  
I get referred #20 for treatment #20 and 21 have properly fitting temp crowns.
#19 hasn't been invaded and supports the posterior occlusion.

4.......After doing the endo, all symptoms go away, #20 and 21 crowns are 
performed without having screwed up the vertical dimension.

5.......Tooth #19 is taken apart either found to be exposed and in need of 
endo in which case it is sent to me before the crown, or simply the crown 
is made without the need for endo.

If you were a patient would you want all this crap torn apart at the same time?   
Whether #18 was treated first or the bicuspids treated first, by doing this in 
segments the complicated crisis could have been avoided, right?
I like the idea of maintaining posterior support throughout the process - Terry



Terry, just a thought - is all that necessary to place a crown on second molar???
From what i have been doing for last three years, i would have elected onlay-type 
restoration, and if it lacks any determined macromechanical retention features, 
then it should be bonded ceramic onlay (e.max in my hands).... why mess around 
with crowns on vital, non-cracked molars?.... nevermind.

In this case and it's state right now... would you consider any kind of perio 
surgery to get more sound coronal tooth structe to prepare a definitive margin?
Why go with rather aggressive Tx like extraction immediately?- Dmitri

P.S. and, oh yes, i like the endo of course :-))

Terry, what do the other quadrants look like... is there severe wear?

One of the things that happens too often is that us restorative dentists get 
excited to start the big case and get moving on it without fully diagnosing the 
case.  Prepping the teeth is really simple.  Make great money doing it.
Looks like this GP forgot to really look at the perio and pulpal health.  
While it seems over the top for some, I have made it a routine to have my 
local endodontist evaluate all the teeth if I'm going to start a case like this.
We still might run into a few surprises, but at least I've already got the patient 
forwarned about the possibility. - Craig Harder

Good point.  Here's my email to the referral below.  I'm an admitted kiss-ass 
and certainly try to be congenial not making the dentist feel bad for doing 
something I wouldn't have done.  In my opinion what this dentist did was
average care not below average.  I don't like average care but feel it is 
not my place to blow the whistle on every case set up I don't personally like.  
Average care is crap care in dentistry these days so we have to accept it as
the standard of care until it improves.

Regarding the extraction suggestion, I was factoring in patient management.  
She is terrible to access posteriorly, isolation will be a problem, but 
probably doable.  I feel that I can do the endo and the buildup but can it be
restored by her dentist?  Is it going to be a good service for the patient if 
I struggle and bully the patient to get an ideal endo result with perfect 
buildup only to have the follow-up restoration fail?

I don't really know what you mean by an onlay and what type of value that 
would offer.  Onlay over an exposed pulp and bond it on?  How long is that 
going to last without internal retention? - Terry

Hi xxxxx,

I took the temps off, treated #20, relined a few holes and evaluated the 
other teeth.  I think that #21 will probably be fine, but we'll want to 
monitor it while the dust settles.  #19 looked deeper than I thought on 
the radiograph, it should also be monitored.   #18 looks very questionable 
restoratively.  How do you feel about it?  A resin bonded composite build 
up would likely fatigue, the bonds hydrolyze, and it would eventually fail.  
An amalgam build-up would provide more strength and better marginal integrity 
but the risk of root fracture due to minimal remaining coronal dentin is 
probably quite high without crown lengthening possibly with some osseous 
reduction.  If you feel confident getting a solid circumferential margin 
on this tooth after endo, crown lengthening, and a bonded amalgam build up, 
then saving it may be reasonable, otherwise I view extraction as the best 
option.  She also has limited jaw opening and it might be difficult for her 
to go through the procedure as I would need to keep the area isolated
and maintain asepsis with some difficult clamping and dam sealing with Dycal.  
I prepared her for extraction but she also understands I was going to talk 
to you first before setting up the next step.

I'll be happy to extract #18  if you would like me to.  Also let me know 
your thoughts on #19, if you need internal retention and the endo done; 
I'll set her up for that as well. - Terry

Terry, Since you mention me,  I'll tell you what I'll do in case like that 
one. Although it is hard to judge based on radiographs only, I would 
probably do endo on all these teeth to save a patient lot of pain and 
unpleasant moments in near future. Explaining this to patient surely will 
be like trying to negotiate nuclear disarmament :-))). You are lucky :-) 
you have not been the one who prepared these teeth for crowns this way
- Valeri

You are probably right about 3 of the teeth.  I still think that since 
#19 was left off the referral slip, it was the one that wasn't exposed.   
I wouldn't jump to retreat that one. :):):) - Terry

hey, do the whole quadrant.  make sure you don't miss the offending 
one. :) - gary
Protaper flaring

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Middle mesial

Endo misdiagnosis

MTA retrofill

Resin core

BW importance

Bicuspid tooth

Necrotic #8 treatment

Finding MB2 / MB3

Deep in a canal

Broken file retrieval

Molar cases

Pushed over apex

MB2 and palatal canal

Long lower third

Veneer cases

CT Implant surgury

Weird Anatomy

Apical trifurcation

Canal and Ultrasonics

Cotton stuffed chamber

Pulp floor sandblasting

Silver point removal

Difficult acute curve

Marked swelling

5 canaled premolar

Sealer overextension

Complex anatomy

Secondary caries

Zygomatic arch

Confluent mesials

LL 1st molar (#19)

Shaping vs Cleaning

First bicuspid

In Vivo mesial view

Inaccesible canals

Premolar 45

Ortho and implant

Radioluscency

Lateral incisor

Obturation

Churning irrigant

Cold lateral

Tipped to lingual

Acute pulpitis images

Middle distal canal

Silver point

Crown preparation

Epiphany healing

Weird anatomy

Dual Xenon

Looking for MB2

Upper molar resorption

Acute apical abcess

Finding MB2

Gingival inflammation

Irreversible pulpitis

AG BU ortho band

TF Files

using TF files

Broken bur

Warm technique

Restorative prognosis

Tooth # 20 and #30

Apical third

3 canal premolar

Severe curvature

Interesting anatomy

Chamber floor

Zirconia crown

Dycal matrix

Cracked tooth

Tooth structure loss

Multiplanar curves